"Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrow-minded, bigoted asshole."

Mary's Status on Facebook:
"Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrow-minded, bigoted asshole."

--The Debate That It Caused--

Brandon (bro-in-law):
Am I really like that? Is your Sister or mom?

Mary (me):
I never attached names to the statement.

Brandon:
No, You put us all in the same group. If you are mad at someone talk to them.

Mary Schuck:
Actually, I'm not. I was curious what comments I would get with this quote. And figured you would definitely be one posting some comment. Guess I was right.

Brandon:
It's just a tad offensive. I know you didn't mean to offend everyone, but a little tactfulness can go a long way.

Mary:
I actually wasn't worried about offending people. In fact, I KNEW it would offend people... hence the curiosity of what kind of comments would be made.

Brandon:
Why are you looking to offend? What is it about Christians that offends you?

Mary:
Although Christianity does have its good points, the exclusive nature of many (not all) Christian groups opens the door to Christian bigotry.
To the Christian bigots themselves, their bigotry is usually invisible. It disguises itself as piety and righteousness. But to non-Christians at the receiving end, it is often plain old unadulterated bigotry.

However, I am not saying I don't believe in God. I even still consider myself a Christian. Though some what "no holds barred", definitely hypocritical and blunt.

Brandon:
Narrow-minded? yes I am, but so are most people. We all have our opinions. Bigoted? No, I am not intolerant of other's beliefs. I still believe in freedom of speech. People can believe what they want, but I have the right not to agree.

Mary:
And you also have the right to refuse the rights of others, because you believe they do not deserve said rights. Obvious controversial topic: homosexuality and the gay-marriage issue.

Brandon:
Wow, I feel we've come to the heart of the statement.

Mary:
Not really, it's just the most prevalent.

It's obvious that there are other forms of bigotry and that they often appeal to religion in justifying themselves.

Anti-semitism is fueled by the belief that Jews killed Jesus. Men may claim superiority over women, because it was Eve who seduced Adam into disobeying God. Homophobes may justify their hatred of homosexuals by finding condemnations of homosexuality in the Bible.

So bigotry and religious justification for bigotry often go hand in hand. However, Christian bigotry is bound to be the most common variety of bigotry. It has a stronger foothold in Christianity than any other kind of bigotry does. In the pulpit, Christian preachers will be more likely to condemn all other kinds of bigotry. There is biblical support for the claim that Jews and Gentiles, blacks and whites, and men and women are all equal in God's eyes. But most preachers are unlikely to tell their congregations that non-Christians can be just as good as Christians, that non-Christians and Christians are equal in God's eyes. Such "heresy" would probably get a minister booted out of his church.

Brandon:
People have a right to be homosexual. Do I think it is good for them? No. I think it is a unhealthy lifestyle. Most people who are in the said lifestyle, rarely stay with their partner for very long(less than a year). So the changing of partners becomes a huge issue. Especially with STDs and AIDS. I think that Christains who truly care for others, will have this as part of the reasoning for not supporting this lifestyle. (It is why I am worried about my brother.) I want him around along time. I also hate the idea that marriage might become something cheap. I took my marriage vows very seriously. Let those who want to indulge in gay-marriage call it by another name. I think marriage has already been defined.

It has nothing to do about being good. It has to do with being forgiven and acting in a way that thanks God for that forgiveness.

But you are right, I am not speaking for all So called Christians.

Mary:
It's not just homosexuals that don't stay with partners. That's a stereotype. There are plenty of heterosexuals that are quite promiscuous themselves. To say it's just a "gay thing" is a cop out.

Meghan:
High-five Mary. This isn't about Christianity being 'bad', it's about people using it as a shield and excuse to be a narrow-minded dick to others who don't share their views. It's not exclusive to Christians, but in most people's life experiences that's the 'group' it comes from.

Mary:
Of course! There's also Muslim bigotry and other forms of religious bigotry. I only focus on Christian bigotry, because it is the most rampant form of religious bigotry in the United States. Any other kind of bigotry I deplore just as much as Christian bigotry.

But, as you said Meghan, it is Christian bigotry that people in America see the most. Christians have much more "power" in this country than other religions have.

Ben:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Gandhi.

Mary:
Oh, and to clarify, for Brandon's sake...

I want to say that non-Christians shouldn't practice any bigotry toward Christians. There are many fine Christians who are not religious bigots, and it is important to remember that non-Christians can be just as fallible as Christians. Many Christians are good people, and no one is a bad person just for being a Christian. Being a member of any religion doesn't automatically make you morally superior to anyone else.

Jen:
Definitely agreeing with Mary on these topics. No matter what the sexual preference, people are in and out of relationships. AIDS and STD's are not at all limited to homosexuals. To suggest that is ignorant. And to imply that homosexuals are more sexually irresponsible than heterosexuals is extremely ignorant as well. Gay or straight, male or female, Christian or Atheist or Agnostic or [insert religion/spiritual belief here], people are people and should have equal rights and equal value, and should be equally respected. These are the irrelevant categories that have been dividing people and breeding hatred for far too long. I think religion is a major setback for humanity. I do. We have children who are being brainwashed to hate others with differing ideas, to think that all of the other ideas out there are absolutely wrong/evil and that those other people are going to something called hell. This is elitism. And it is absolutely ridiculous. It seems so innocent. The Christian teaches their child to befriend other Christians and to be wary of other who are any variety of non-Christian. They are taught that that non-Christian needs to be saved from their "evil" lifestyle. So these Christian children grow up believing that there is something wrong with everyone who has differing beliefs. There is no hope for humanity if we allow this to go on. We will never grow as people if we continue to think this way and continue to blindly follow and never question the things that we are taught. As for the Bible, I don't think that it can be trusted. Infallible? I don't think so. There are too many inconsistencies. It has been mistranslated and over-revised. And aside from that, it could very well be an old book of propaganda more than anything else.

Religion is the source of so many lies, it's ridiculous.
LIE: Homosexuality is a sin.
LIE: Women are inferior to men.
LIE: One religion is right and all the rest are wrong.
LIE: Atheists have no morals.
LIE: Morals come from religion.

Mary:
Jen, you're amazing. And I'm glad you decided to comment and give you're opinion on the topic since we grew up in the same town, church, etc.

Jen:
I think you're amazing, too, Mary! I think we're on similar pages. Tired of the setbacks, the things that make people think there is only one correct view, and the intolerance of all other views, and the hatred that stems from that, and the attempt at forcing said view onto those with said other views. Fortunately, there are a lot of people out there with a variety of different viewpoints that are waking up to the lies that we've been told.

Laraine:
when i saw that dude admitted to being narrow-minded i knew i didn't need to read ahead. too funny. and actually i'd say religion is redonkulous. as soon as you stop questioning things you've started your role as a moron.

Jen:
Yep. We should never stop questioning. Even if it leads us to a point that makes us reconsider the things that we thought were true once. I would rather discover a lie that shatters a supposed truth than go on believing a lie.

Mary:
Exactly Jen. I am constantly questioning my own beliefs / ideologies.

Beth:
ehem...I really shouldn't say anything.
Ah, hell...
Remember how religion got its beginnings...All religions...to answer our origin questions, because it's too scary to think that it all just happened chaotically-through chance. With that understanding, we can see how one group of people can think that their ideas are more 'logical' than that of another group. And with that, we can see how fights can break out between two differing groups. Hmmm, then we have battles, then wars, along with propoganda, and integration of differing religions with each other. With that understanding, especially looking at the basic beginnings of religion, we can say that those who fight the hardest for their beliefs are the ones who are most afraid of being proven wrong....those who are afraid of the holes in what they've been taught. And then there are those people who are third or fourth or fifth or hundredth generation who are only following what they've been brainwashed to believe is the truth. So compassion is what we need to show people who don't understand. It's hard, but it's the best way to work...fight fire with fire, right?

Yikes.
Okay, and Brandon, REALLY? Homosexual relationships last less than a year? Who ARE you? Where have you been, bro? Your brother is going to do fine as long as he was taught how to have a loving caring, and respectful relationship with whomever he chooses to spend the rest of his life with.
I think Mary's status is spot on. If someone wants to be a bigoted asshole, pick someone who is a bigoted asshole as your role model, not the C-Man.

Mary:
Hetero-marriage... Homo-marriage...

Marriage in general started because of the Crusades. Men would leave for war and never come back, finding new wives. Marriage was the only way to ensure that they would feel obligated to come back. The churches had too many unwed mothers to deal with.

Interesting how all these things actually started... when you actually look. Even religion for that matter.

David (brother):
Jen, I want to respond to something you said. " I think religion is a major setback for humanity. I do."

Religion is something that has given humanity its greatest cultures, thinkers, civilizations, and ideas. Religion has done many things that we now regret, but let us not think of religion simply has being that has set us back. On the contrary, religion has made us who we are. Western civilization, Eastern civilization, etc., would not be what they are today without religions.

I was in India in 2009 and I walked the streets of Hyderabad and the surrounding small towns and villages around it. All around me were Hindu temples along with memories of past religious rule. In the three trips I have made to India, I can never escape the presence of religion. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Animism, Sikhism, etc., were all around me. We can look at the oppression that Hinduism causes in the caste, or the terrorism done in the name of Islam, but this is not telling the whole truth about the experience of these religions. That is why I will defend all religions, even those that I disagree with, against the claim that they have held humanity back. Yes, there are doctrines that need to be done away with, but let us give the whole story about religion before we condemn it.

Mary, I also take issue with the idea that marriage started with the crusades. There are Old Testament laws for marriage which were written a thousand years before the crusades.

Mary:
I am glad you commented though, bro. You are the historian of the family. :) And I appreciate that.

Brandon:
Just to set the record straight. I know it sounded like I came across as not knowing what I was talking about, but proof is a better arguement.

MONOGAMY VS. PROMISCUITY: SEXUAL PARTNERS OUTSIDE OF THE RELATIONSHIP
Lest anyone suffer the illusion that any equivalency between the sexual practices of homosexual relationships and traditional marriage exists, the statistics regarding sexual fidelity within marriage are revealing:
... See More
Married couples

· A nationally representative survey of 884 men and 1,288 women published in the Journal of Sex Research found that 77 percent of married men and 88 percent of married women had remained faithful to their marriage vows.[9]

· A 1997 national survey appearing in The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States found that 75 percent of husbands and 85 percent of wives never had sexual relations outside of marriage.[10]

· A telephone survey conducted for Parade magazine of 1,049 adults selected to represent the demographic characteristics of the United States found that 81 percent of married men and 85 percent of married women reported that they had never violated their marriage vows.[11]

Male Homosexuals

Research indicates that the average male homosexual has hundreds of sex partners in his lifetime:

· The Dutch study of partnered homosexuals, which was published in the journal AIDS, found that men with a steady partner had an average of eight sexual partners per year.[12]

· Bell and Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having one thousand or more sex partners.[13]

· In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in the Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that "the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101-500." In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1,000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than one thousand lifetime sexual partners.[14]

· A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than one hundred sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than one thousand sexual partners.[15]

"Commitment" in Male Homosexual Couples

Even in those homosexual relationships in which the partners consider themselves to be in a committed relationship, the meaning of "committed" or "monogamous" typically means something radically different than in heterosexual marriage.

· A Canadian study of homosexual men who had been in committed relationships lasting longer than one year found that only 25 percent of those interviewed reported being monogamous." According to study author Barry Adam, "Gay culture allows men to explore different...forms of relationships besides the monogamy coveted by heterosexuals."[16]

· The Handbook of Family Diversity reported a study in which "many self-described 'monogamous' couples reported an average of three to five partners in the past year. Blasband and Peplau (1985) observed a similar pattern."[17]

· In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that, in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years:

Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years. Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships.[18]

And so, no, I don't think I am a bigot. But I do think I can still hope that those involved in this lifestyle will not end up dying from it. It is dangerous.

You can get AIDS from the lifestyle and it can kill you....Why does it have to be so....us against them? Why can't there be compassion? Why can't people just agree to disagree?(Beth, Jen) Why all the animosity?

Why so critical of my way of life even if you can't comprehend why I believe the way I do? I believe I am not doped by my father's beliefs. Rather, I see why he made the decisions he made. He wasn't a Christian until he was in his 20s. He had good morals, but didn't know squat about God. Now, he is very convincing in his arguements for believing the way he does.

There is alot of bitterness in these words that you have said, I wish that source of that bitterness would heal. I don't wish you anything but kindness and peace. May you have it.

Mary:
AIDS is actually more rampant in heterosexuals than homosexuals now. Being homosexual doesn't necessarily make you more susceptible to getting AIDS than if you were straight. ANY person that is promiscuous has that chance of AIDS or an STD.

I'm not being critical of any way of life. I wasn't actually trying to offend anyone, yes, I KNEW that people would get offended, but that's their own doing.

The quote wasn't directed at any particular person. It's just stating that SOME use God/Jesus as an excuse to be bigots.

Sarah:
Mary and Jen - I am saddened to see the hurt in your words. I am unsure what the church (or those within it) have done to hurt you so. It is obvious that you have chosen to walk a different path than I remember you choosing in your youth. What I find interesting is that you both ran in circles that pressured their beliefs on others and condemned you if you didn't believe the same way. Although I am glad that you are now willing and able to see people as people, I plead with you to see God as God and not as his far from perfect creations show Him to be. I am also one for questioning everything, which is what we are called to do in the Bible. I am sorry if your pastors, teachers and leaders never allowed for that.
Brandon - in situations like this, a pissing contest is not in order. It would be best to remind Mary you love her, although you disagree, and leave it at that. I am positive that she knows where you stand, hence the fact that she knew you would respond.
David - Mary has always spoken highly of you! Your words were amazing and challenge me to study more!!! Thank you.

Where I stand: I, as a follower of Christ, am not offended. However, I take this as a reminder that Christ ministered to the unlovely. Those outcastes and mistreated by those who took God's love and law and made it into a do's and do not's ruling. Although I am a part of the Christian religion, I do not believe that God made me out of a cookie cutter mold. Jesus loves me and my piercings and tattoos. God calls me to believe and to act like it. What does that look like? Why not visit with me and let me show you, rather than use words. My hope is to speak God's love so loudly (with actions) that no one hears the words from my mouth.

Believe me when I say that I love you all and will be praying for you.

Beth:
Mary, you are soooo evil for posting this!! ;) I'm not going to respond to anymore of this tripe. It's pointless.

David:
Sarah, thank you for your kinds words. There was a time when I was willing to challenge everything that Christianity said but now I find that there is much truth within it. I am not orthodox (whatever that means), but I see Christianity as my faith even if question much of it.

Ronni:
"It's just a tad offensive. I know you didn't mean to offend everyone, but a little tactfulness can go a long way."

If you take offense at Mary's comment then it is probably aimed at you. Personally I read it and thought, "so true, it's fellow Christians that give everyone the bad name."

I have many friends who are pagan, does that mean I can't be friends with them, NO! It means I need to set an example of what a Christian should be. It means I should show them the benefits of being a Christian and living in God's love. It means when they find out I'm a Christian I need to open my arms to them even more and accept them for who they are so that they may find Christ.

Most of my pagan friends assume I am pagan because I do not condemn them; I am a sinner too! Who am I to condemn?

And as for the comments on homo-sexuality: I have seen MANY MORE gay/lesbian couples with a true commitment than hetero couples. One in particular that comes to mind are two men in their 60s now who have been together since one was 18 and the other 19. Percentage-wise, homosexual couples stay together longer then heterosexual couples. The problem is that the only way we get this information is through "random" surveys because there is no census of homosexual couples. And calling it a "lifestyle" is disrespectful... you want them to listen to you? You want them to be saved? You need to be respectful if you truly want them to listen to you. By being rude and aloof to these things just makes them aloof back.

God does not put one sin above another (unless you're Catholic)... it is not the actions themselves but SIN is ONE THING: DISOBEYING GOD. Have you disobeyed God? Yes, therefore you are a sinner. Even something as simple as condemning someone else or disliking them for their sins IS A SIN! It is called PRIDE. You are no better nor worse than your fellows; you are either saved or not, but we are all sinners!

Brandon:
Sarah- Thank you for those words. I agree, and getting wrapped up in this arguement wasn't my idea, I just got carried away. I really wanted to know why Mary would post something like that. I was surprized.

Ronni- If you read the bible, you will find what God thinks is sin. I am not saying homosexuality is wrong, I am defending God's point of view with some statistics I found. He says it's wrong, and he even thinks some sins are worse than others(read the old Testament). If the punishment is worse then the sin is too. You are right in saying that everyone has sinned. I have sinned too, but it is the blood of Christ that washes the sin away. But I am no longer a sinner, but a saint, I am a Child of God, and a follower of Christ.

Mary- You are right. AIDS is actually more rampant in heterosexuals than homosexuals now. Being homosexual doesn't necessarily make you more susceptible to getting AIDS than if you were straight. ANY person that is promiscuous has that chance of AIDS or an STD.
This is a very good quote. and I think that this is the very thing that I am afraid of for my brother.

Everyone else. Thank you for this discussion. But I am done with it.
Special thanks to Sarah for putting this into perspective. Good day.

Jen:
Ah statistics.... Statistics, Brandon, are absolutely worthless. They prove nothing. I noticed that you were comparing MARRIED heterosexual couples with unmarried homosexual couples. I have a feeling that the statistics, although worthless, would be a little different if you were to compare mature heterosexual couples and mature homosexual couples. You're trying to compare people who want to be in a committed relationship with people who don't. It's nonsensical. Maybe you should find some worthless statistics on unmarried heterosexuals and their number of sexual encounters.
But as I said, statistics prove nothing. There are too many variables to consider, including the mindset of the folks who participate in ridiculous surveys, and the mindset of the folks who don't, or the time of day the survey is performed, or the stress level of the participants, vs the stress level of the nonparticipants, etc. etc. etc.
"...AIDS... ...it could kill you..." So can drinking pop or sitting for extended periods of time or eating fast food or having heterosexual sex or doing drugs or drinking fluoridated water or eating animal products or tripping down a flight of stairs or being hit by a car or stressing out about things that aren't your business...

Ronni:
"So can drinking pop or sitting for extended periods of time or eating fast food or having heterosexual sex or doing drugs or drinking fluoridated water or eating animal products or tripping down a flight of stairs or being hit by a car or stressing out about things that aren't your business..."

I absolutely love that!

Latin for the Day

Carpe Diem - Seize the day
Carpe Noctum - Seize the night
Carpin Denium - There's a fish in my pants
Carpe Ovum - Seize the egg
Cave Canem - Beware of the dog

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